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Poster:
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dstanme |
Date:
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Aug 12, 2006 6:34am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
I'm not so sure, the Dead have always allowed trading between individuals, if I go to shnlac.com and download a show the exchange is between individuals. As long as there isn't a web site hosing the shows, how is this diffrent from you and I trading cassetes like in the old days?
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Poster:
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high flow |
Date:
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Aug 12, 2006 12:09pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
I don't have any inside info. I just have bad feeling. Now that the rights to these recordings are in corporate hands, there is no way to be sure. I DO agree that there is no way to stop individuals from trading in the physical world. In cyber-space, however, I can see GD SBDs being tracked and removed from bt sites.
Most bands on LMA benefit from the exposure they get here. Rhino is not a band trying to gain an audience. Rhino is a corporate machine trying to milk profit from an asset they recently acquired. It doesn't look good for us. That's all I am saying. Just 1 man's opinion.
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Poster:
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orchiddoctor |
Date:
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Aug 12, 2006 12:30pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
Back to the same old debate. Reality: it's like locking the barn door after the horse has escaped. Cutting off the streams will be a logical followup, but the horse is out there. Reality: It is their legal right to do so, plain and simple. They cannot hunt you down or take away what you already have, so enjoy and trade away. But it is their right. And it is your right to boycott them if you chose.
Back in the day (1970s), trading was a social event, a small gathering of the tribe. We'd bring what we had that we knew was good trade material and go to some stranger's house, set up cassette decks in a row and copy at a slow pace. We would also listen to what we copied with friends and good weed. And we would do something very strange: we would talk. We would feel like it was the next best thing to being there. Audience, 10th gen sbs, it didn't matter--there wasn't much and it was gold. AND we listened to each new gem over and over. Now it's too much too quick. I doubt more than a handful of very hardcore heads have really listened to everything they've downloaded anyway. Or is that 457th version of "Me and My Uncle: really that special?
Every concert on archive has been downloaded by someone. Why not use your energy making contacts in your locale, meeting folks, getting high, and listening to the music instead of fighting over it? Why not see if you can set up a trade network here? And I agree with the poster who mentioned picking up concerts he was at on DPs. I've picked up quite a few, including DP 36 which I waited 30 years to hear in crisp quality. I knew that Dark Star ending note for note; I pissed my pants when Jerry launched into that jam--but it was all new on the cds. And those 1972 Academy of music shows--what lousy audience tapes! But it was like being back in the balcony all over again.
Good stuff, these releases, and if Rhino will escalate their releases--great. As Bill Graham said at the end of the last Fillmore East concert, "More, more more. Why don't you sit back and relax for once and just enjoy the music?"
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Poster:
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midnight sun |
Date:
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Aug 13, 2006 5:27am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
>>>As Bill Graham said at the end of the last Fillmore East concert, "More, more more. Why don't you sit back and relax for once and just enjoy the music?"<<<
with all the requests and other commotion going on from the audience it must have been difficult for GD (and other bands) to get into that certain musical headspace, the flow, that deep down inside source of creativity that most other artists (visual fine arts, writers etc) get to groove on within the quietness of their sanctuaries...alternately, solitary artists will often comment that group performing artists are lucky to have allies in their pursuits as well as an audience for direct feedback and supplementation of enthusiastic energy
(sorry, been thinking about that since i first heard Bill Grahams quote many years ago, besides it's 4:00 AM)
back to the original thread, it seems likely that Rhino will quickly remaster and attempt to sell as much as they can as they only have a kick at the can for 10 years, after which the vault along with the rights to the Rhino funded remasters will presumably revert back to GD...might they leave the auds up for free promo? as good as some of them sound, surely they can't be competition???
worst case scenario, an evil totalitarion regime...they still can't take away the music playing in our heads
(now it's 5:00 AM :)
This post was modified by midnight sun on 2006-08-13 12:27:20
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Poster:
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orchiddoctor |
Date:
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Aug 13, 2006 6:33am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
Messing with the audience tapes would be a true betrayal of the band's philosophy. First, they had a taper's section. Second, even though they released that wonderfully taped "Hard to Handle" on The Phil Zone cd., I doubt they see audience tapes as competition, Legally, by allowing the audience to tape and trade freely, they cannot turn on a dime and say that tapes that were made with this understanding can no longer be dissiminated. The sbds are intellectual property recorded by the corporation, the audiences are forever in the wind.
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Poster:
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midnight sun |
Date:
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Aug 13, 2006 7:16am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
this is the most reassuring issue so far
when you say "in the wind", does that include this site, bitorrent etc?
what about the "royalties" issue that Bobby alluded to, do they apply to aud's as well as sbd's, who is supposed to pay them, or was that perhaps just a red herring?
don't mean to press you on this, perhaps someone else will care to comment, thanx
This post was modified by midnight sun on 2006-08-13 14:16:52
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Poster:
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orchiddoctor |
Date:
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Aug 13, 2006 7:21am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
Try to remember that Bobby has a mouth that gets in the way a lot. If I tell you that you may record my concert and then may make copies for your friends--and I go so far as to set up a taper's section for just that purpose--I cannot renege and tell you to stop making copies--as long as there is no money involved. I could threaten expensive legal action which you might chose not to fight--but I would lose in court.
However, if my employees make soundboard tapes at our request from our equipment for our use and we allow you access to them, we still have the right to say stop. Still, noone will chase an individual who wants to trade.
The point is that if you made it with your equipment on your tape with permission, noone can take away you right to do with it what you will as long as it's not for profit.
The thing is to stop seeing the band members as lawyers and businessmen, but as very reluctant spokesmen who step on their tongues.
"See ya" indeed.
Bottom line is that the dead and it's products are, as has been recently pointed out here, out of date, old news, passee. They never charted well in the first place.
I think Rhino bought a poison pill. How many releases will really sell well? And the band always recognized the prohibitive expense of digitizing the vault--that's why they sought a sponser such as Microsoft. Expensive process.
I woud imagine that it would cost millions to do the job well. How many items would you download at 15 bucks a pop?
ANd how may people would really want to load up on shows for money? I can think of a dozen I might want--shows I went to--that I don't already have.
Seems like a bad investment. Besides, all the current bands have instant downloads of their concerts (e.g. Pearl Jam, the Allmans). That's a lot of competition.
But back to the question at hand; audiences won't be touched. I cannot see the group or rhino taking them down after allowing them to stay up. They'll be here and there for as long as anyone cares.
This post was modified by orchiddoctor on 2006-08-13 14:21:42
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Poster:
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midnight sun |
Date:
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Aug 13, 2006 7:42am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
this is true, all this stuff is only of any interest to a true deadhead, and even then mostly centered on specific shows or eras...i have long given up on trying to turn people on other than my own family and extended family...most people just don't get it, and maybe they shouldn't (deadheads are not superior, just different)
but it is still hard to fathom that an organization that was once a hundred strong didn't have a more effective "business" division to go with there primo creative division (the vault), Jer really did leave a big black hole of anti-matter in his wake
i'm going to clam up and give some else a turn now, thanks doc for the clarifications
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Poster:
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orchiddoctor |
Date:
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Aug 13, 2006 8:54am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
At the risk of taking up too much space, who are we talking about? The band that hired Lenny "Born Again" Hart to rip them off? The band that didn't realize all that studio time was busting them? The Dead of the Ron Rakow rip off? Captain Trips and the million dollar dead movie that was a bust? The Dead that hired managers based on Acid Test participation?
Love the band, but they were a bunch of dumbasses in business. Dp's could have begun ten years earlier if the band were paying attention. And where oh where is that Terripin Station? So often, they left these decisions to outsiders, so often they made bad decisions, so often they were pipe dreamers. Musicians should stick to making music and let professionals handle the business end.
It's a mess--that's the truth. And don't think that Jerry was the Tito that kept his Yugoslavia together. Jerry hated the business trip.
Let's hope for the best and in the meantime enjoy the legacy of one of the world's most interesting bands.
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Poster:
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midnight sun |
Date:
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Aug 13, 2006 11:28am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
that's just too funny, don't i feel like a goof
go easy on me doc, guess i tuned in further along (82>88) when things at least "appeared" to be a well oiled machine
who else sold out all of their shows by mail order 3 months in advance, cutting out Ticketron (or was it Ticketmaster?) from their hefty middleman cut?
who else was performing meaningful music (exploritory instrumental with insightful lyrics) in this era to large audiences, each show an individual work in it's own right (i'm talking the ugly repulsive early 80's, a time that Bonnie Rait boasted "it's a good time to be OUT of music, hic")?
you're very right though, i didn't consider the colossal business failures that occurred, and perhaps in the 80's they simplified things down to what they did best, touring, or maybe just kept their dealings more hidden?
a non-head friend once asked my why they didn't release sbd's of the shows, (considering their albums failed to capture the essence) and i responded that they couldn't seem to be bothered with multi-tracking every tour and no one would be prepared to pay money (except a deadhead) for a crude stereo "mix on the fly" cassette recording full of performance errors that even the band themselves felt was pretty much worthless after the live performance fact...that infamous "when we're done with it they can have it" statement was more of an admission of "who cares?" than a gesture of generosity
could be it wasn't until Jer was gone that people suddenly realized that the Garcia era GD vault although large was in fact now finite, you couldn't just head on out to a handful of shows each year anymore, the vault was all that remained, it was still better than nothing, maybe now people were ready to start paying and the surviving members were ready to lower their standards as to what an acceptable release was
thanx for pointing this out, i think what fooled me was seeing an artistic success and assuming business success, when all too often in music (and show biz) we see slick business propping up shoddy artistic endeavors
my i'm a mouthpiece this morning!
good thing we are the only ones posting right now
This post was modified by midnight sun on 2006-08-13 18:28:41
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Poster:
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orchiddoctor |
Date:
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Aug 13, 2006 11:30am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
Good point too--about the touring. But they had subsidiary groups that handled that for them--e.g. Fly by night productions. Leaving it in the hands of outside professionals DID work rather well. The Dick's Picks series was finally launced after Kidd Candeleiro dropped a bunch of cd boots on the table at a band meeting. Oops--someone's making money! Dick (God Bless him) never claimed to be a businessman. I have no idea who ran the show there.
But aside from all those goofy musicians, I'm afraid that the Dead's popularity is shrinking fast. Too much garbage at the dead store--golf shirts and the like. Somehow, I don't think Jerry would have approved of Deborah's cashing in on his fame. Jerry Garcia Wine. Oy.
As I said, I wish Rhino luck.
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Poster:
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jstraw_from_topeka |
Date:
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Aug 14, 2006 6:47am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
I wish Rhino luck too. I think Rhino is a wonderful outfit. I'm a big fan. It is possible that they bought a poison pill but I doubt it. They're not idiots.
GDP has never had anything close to a sensible pricing model for their vaulted commodity. I can buy buy DP=36 on CD for $25, as a FLAC download for $23.50, 256k MP3 for $19.75 or 128k MP3 for $19. That's simply insane. They're rightfully proud of the music but they're pricing based on what they think it should be worth, not what the market will bear.
The people that care about this music does indeed constitute a small and shrinking market. I think Rhino will be astute when it comes to generating maximum return on their investment. They can get $19 dollars from me...and that is after all what they want to do. But they can't get that from me with one, 128k show. They probably can with somewhere between 10-20 shows or for a monthly download subscription or some other creative business model.
I think Rhino will figure out what the tipping point is that gets consumers like me to break out the VISA card. GDP never did.
I expect that Rhino will be conservative when it comes to new compilations of vault material. This will be a challenge for them because this has always been an area of great expertise at Rhino but there have been so many box sets and compilations released in recent years that servicing that catalog will be a challenge in its own right.
Yes, it's possible that free streaming of soundboards is in jeopardy and that would be a loss.
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Poster:
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direwolf0701 |
Date:
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Aug 14, 2006 7:28am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
very well said Jstraw - i totally agree with you on every point. I too hope they know the/our market well - suppose they wouldn't be where they are if they didnt. Lets hope the sbd streams stay though.
Peace
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Poster:
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orchiddoctor |
Date:
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Aug 14, 2006 8:12am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
I, too, agree with Rhino's ability. They've more than proven themselves over the last decade--and the box sets are great. I wonder what the deal was that they struck (none of my business, of course). What I meant by poison pill is that digitizing the vault--if that is the goal--is not going to be cheap. Factor in remixing, cleaning up--which they were doing at a snail's pace--and you've got a mighty investment. So, if you don't want to spend 20-25 bucks (understandable), is it worth their while to finally do the whole vault? I think not. Especially since neither you nor I would download the whole thing (even when the milk was free here on archive, I didn't overindulge). So my question is mainly about digitizing all those shows that have not been dealt with.
I hope that the minds at Rhino can figure this one out better than a bunch of fans in the bleechers can (myself included). I believe they have a plan or they wouldn't have touched the deal--whatever it is.
And I wish them luck not cynically, but because I would love to see it work.
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Poster:
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cosmicharlie |
Date:
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Aug 14, 2006 8:29am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
hey, I'll sit in the Vault for minimum wage, free lunch/Ganja and work on all that- I'll send 'em my job offer- I need a good post retirement job -lol
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Poster:
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orchiddoctor |
Date:
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Aug 14, 2006 9:41am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
Well, I hear it's air-conditioned.
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Poster:
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cosmicharlie |
Date:
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Aug 14, 2006 10:03am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
Latvala!!
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Poster:
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orchiddoctor |
Date:
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Aug 14, 2006 12:01pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
I wonder if being in the midst of all that treasure was too much for him.
What a guy--I don't care how humble he was, he was the engine that powered the car.
Latvala! indeed!
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Poster:
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cosmicharlie |
Date:
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Aug 14, 2006 12:16pm |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
i met him once on 4/9/99 at the Fillmore, It was an event called the Spring Dang Doodle, It was a Dicks Picks 11(i think)preview party. Dick seemed a real cool person. He held court upstairs with a big line of people to talk to him. A friend of mine wanted me to ask about his favorite show he was at on 5/26/73 Kezar. Dick more or less flamed the show as being one of the worst that year-the dude was opinionated to be sure, but he could back it up. I think he loved the vault job alot
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Poster:
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Olo |
Date:
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Aug 12, 2006 9:24am |
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Forum:
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GratefulDead
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Subject:
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Re: Maybe Rhino Pulls The Plug??? |
>if I go to shnlac.com and download a show the exchange is between individuals. As long as there isn't a web site hosing the shows, how is this diffrent from you and I trading cassetes like in the old days?<
Tell that to the Allman Brothers Band or Jorma/Hot Tuna
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